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  • Edelbrock 65mm throttle body

    will a EDELBROCK 65MM THROTTLE BODY fit my 2000 b20b someone is selling me one for $140 bucks almost new but dont know if its to big for a stock b20b im running the b18a intake mani for now thats in till i find a skunk2 or blox intake for my 90 DA heres pictures of it.
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  • #2
    if you're going with the better intake mani then without a doubt run the 65mm TB. you may lose a little low end tq but you should notice it up top. but since its a b20 you should be disappointed in anyway

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    • #3
      its for now as I'm building my ls with a v tec b16a head or gsr not to sure yet
      also trowing in some 1.8 type r pistons but i also have this b20 that in my da right

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      • #4
        65mm is still small, my LS was using a BDL 70mm, no loss in any power range. Now I'm using it for my LSVTEC setup.

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        • #5
          did you dyno the setup with the 70mm tb t0 see if it was a loss or not if not then there really is no way to tell if you loss anything or not

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          • #6
            Hmmm, yeah you're right but if my old B20A never lost power with larger TB's I'm sure the LS which is a better performer wont either. And yes there is tons of information on the B20A.

            The biggest mistake people make when building a car is intake/exhaust setups. You'll want the largest exhaust possible and the quickest intake possible IE a large enough bore to allow enough air at a proper speed to enter the engine.

            All my builds have used nothing less then a 68mm TB with no loss, be it a stock D16ZC or my current H22A.

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            • #7
              rotor: depending on application, i might or might not suggest to get it.
              • if your going to see positive manifold pressure (boost) in the future, then i would get it. it should match very well for a lower (sub ~500 whp) boosted application.
              • if your going to be NA forever, i would suggest against it. a 62 mm (60mm if you want to keep good gas mileage) will be more then enough for cfm induction requirements (sub ~220 whp)


              both options "assume" you have the correctly matched inlet size. read the bottom for a little into that part............

              Originally posted by team123luder View Post
              65mm is still small, my LS was using a BDL 70mm, no loss in any power range. Now I'm using it for my LSVTEC setup.
              prove it. unless your boosted (making big power, 500+), i bet you saw a power loss from idle to 6k (4k if boosted at all).

              Originally posted by team123luder View Post
              The biggest mistake people make when building a car is intake/exhaust setups.
              and it seems like your in that group. air follows fluid dynamics, so just going big doesnt = power. bisi (from bisimoto) has proved this time and time again.

              Originally posted by team123luder View Post
              All my builds have used nothing less then a 68mm TB with no loss, be it a stock D16ZC or my current H22A.
              a d-series will not require bigger then a 60mm TB when making less then 500 whp. 99% of people building d-series are not making that kind of power.

              Originally posted by team123luder View Post
              You'll want the largest exhaust possible and the quickest intake possible IE a large enough bore to allow enough air at a proper speed to enter the engine.
              no and no.

              you want the largest exhaust possible that retains heat and exhaust gas speeds (which go hand and hand). design and lay out of the exhaust system is very crucial, everything from the exhaust port to the muffler.

              as far as intake, there are two areas to address. NA or FI. if NA, you dont want the intake to "out flow" the engine. as this will cause a power loss till the engine resonates. if FI, then the process is the same except you dont really have to worry about top end flow. as the turbo/blower, or NO2 will take care of actual cfm requirements.

              and then (for intake) there is also the two schools of thought for port matching.
              • the old school method wants you to go big or go home and match everything for port size. actual fluid dynamics is NOT applied.
              • the new school method leaves a 1-2 mm step for port sizes (TB port, IM flange to head), this is called a "reversion" step. research that term, and see how it might apply here

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              • #8
                90DB1T = WIN

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                • #9
                  Then please explain how an open header will contribute more power... This is something most pro race cars do with out, an exhaust, which in return means its an open exhaust, no speed, heat or anything of what you said complies with it.

                  Why do people make more power with exhaust cut outs? Is the infinite sized exhaust helping heat?

                  Anything after the last collector on every header is or will be a restriction. Bisi himself opted for a 3" exhaust on his stock D series wagovan with dyno sheets to prove it.

                  Tired and worn H22A's in complete stock trim have been known to improve up to or beyond 15% on a 3" exhaust, JGrove from preludepower.com just made a tad over that on a stock B20A3 (it's freaking carbed) Bisi tuned his car and complimented him on his exhaust choice. All on 3" exhausts.

                  NA D series motors have been known and built to produce up to 200whp.

                  My current setup is a stock H22A with a 70mm TB, why isn't it suffering from such a power loss that you mention? Or is it that the H22 intake velocity is different then a B18 at partial throttle?

                  If you're looking for a daily driver and don't care about WOT movement, stick to the stocker. Simple as that.

                  If you constantly are at WOT which is what my prelude is for (my unofficial drag car) then dive into it.

                  Yeah you're right, with out "proof" it isn't true, however I'm on prelude sites more often then here and it's posted through out the web. I'm just on here to read and learn about my DA8, that's all.


                  FYI Bisi is my tuner and actually helps with most if not all of my setups.

                  My biggest issue right now with my H22A is my short ram intake, if I opt and get a CAI, with proper tuning, I could lower my VTEC engagement and make a crap load more midrange from just a 3" x 3ft CAI. It's been proven, hound pp.com.

                  People always assume to understand fluid dynamics, yet they fail to realize that engines are simple pumps. You want air in and out, sure you're not going to install the largest TB possible, or opt for a dual TB setup like Rosko's on his fully built H22.

                  There is only so much air a stock motor will inhale, velocity is needed, however the stock TB isn't or wasn't meant for performance. It's meant for reliability and emissions. A stock B20A5 has been recorded to reach up to 300k miles, original motor just kept in shape, fluids, belts, tune ups done accordingly.

                  Most if not all of the B20A's that have been modified have yet to reach the 100k mark since the modifying has begun.

                  Mugen's F3 engine is a B20A, 4 cylinder, 95mm stroke low revving engine, making over 200hp all flowing through an air intake restrictor, car has ITB's, gigantic plenum, however due to rules they must all run that restrictor. The current Mugen B20A builder mentioned, if the restrictor was removed, the engine would easily put down overwhelming numbers...... hmmmm how?

                  Last thing I'll mention. I gained 3whp and a broad power curve on my stock B18C when I replaced the stock intake manifold and TB with 52mm TWM ITB's, how? How is it possible? If what you said (which is true) is valid?
                  Last edited by team123luder; 22 Jan 2010, 04:30:04.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    Then please explain how an open header will contribute more power... This is something most pro race cars do with out, an exhaust, which in return means its an open exhaust, no speed, heat or anything of what you said complies with it.
                    application. full race car =/= street car. max power, from the exhaust system, is somewhere between 20" to 30". when dealing with a street car, seeing as they need a full length exhaust, design/sizing/bends/muffler all play a part in keeping the exhaust speeds up.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    Why do people make more power with exhaust cut outs? Is the infinite sized exhaust helping heat?
                    do they? are they opening it at idle or once exhaust gas speeds pass the apex between exhaust efficiency and a restriction? there has been more then a few "proven" results of street cars losing power in the bottom end when using a cut out.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    Anything after the last collector on every header is or will be a restriction. Bisi himself opted for a 3" exhaust on his stock D series wagovan with dyno sheets to prove it.
                    first part is wrong, but that goes into header and exhaust design. regardless, your blatant comment about restriction in the exhaust system by anything after the collector is lacking knowledge.

                    bringing up his wagovan is a very bad idea. its not a street car and its also a 700 whp d-series engine. did you read my post or just assume you knew something? please take note of some of the numbers placed in the post

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    NA D series motors have been known and built to produce up to 200whp.
                    no, they have made 200+ whp. they are not known for making +/-200 whp. the average fully built d-series (oem crank) will only make 160 whp. steve "big tuna" comes to mind, since he has one of the most aggressive "average" (oem crank, nothing uber crazy) build.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    My current setup is a stock H22A with a 70mm TB, why isn't it suffering from such a power loss that you mention? Or is it that the H22 intake velocity is different then a B18 at partial throttle?
                    CFM requirement is different between a b18 and a h22.... might have something to do with displacement **sarcasm**.

                    however, i am pretty sure your h22 (assuming it an average street build) doesnt need a 70mm TB. 65mm would have done the job just fine.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    If you're looking for a daily driver and don't care about WOT movement, stick to the stocker. Simple as that. If you constantly are at WOT which is what my prelude is for (my unofficial drag car) then dive into it.
                    yup, you failed to read what was placed in the thread.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    Yeah you're right, with out "proof" it isn't true, however I'm on prelude sites more often then here and it's posted through out the web. I'm just on here to read and learn about my DA8, that's all.
                    yay for you.... **roll eyes**

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    FYI Bisi is my tuner and actually helps with most if not all of my setups.
                    and? maybe you should pick his brain a bit. seems like you missed a few things.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    My biggest issue right now with my H22A is my short ram intake, if I opt and get a CAI, with proper tuning, I could lower my VTEC engagement and make a crap load more midrange from just a 3" x 3ft CAI. It's been proven, hound pp.com.
                    short ram = low end to mid power

                    long/cai = mid to high end power

                    common knowledge.....

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    People always assume to understand fluid dynamics, yet they fail to realize that engines are simple pumps. You want air in and out, sure you're not going to install the largest TB possible, or opt for a dual TB setup like Rosko's on his fully built H22.
                    in the simplest form, yes your right. air in and air out. however how effectively you get that air in and out is the key.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    There is only so much air a stock motor will inhale, velocity is needed, however the stock TB isn't or wasn't meant for performance. It's meant for reliability and emissions.
                    i went ahead and highlighted where you shot yourself in the foot. for honda, they have very efficient engines, hence how low their emissions are compared to other makers of the same engine size. the ones that come on the car stock are pretty close to what the engine will need in a mild set-up, slightly small usually to keep the intake air speeds up. if you notice how i said 60-62mm TB is good enough, seeing as that is slightly bigger then stock and yet still maintains the reversion step between the TB and IM.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    Most if not all of the B20A's that have been modified have yet to reach the 100k mark since the modifying has begun.
                    less to do with the engine, more to do with the builders and parts quality used. in the same regard, my lightning has 100k miles (original powertrain) on it. everything under the hood is perfect. however, there are more then 1k other lightnings on third and forth engines and rebuilt transmissions. does this say anything about the engine? nah, just the owners

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    Mugen's F3 engine is a B20A, 4 cylinder, 95mm stroke low revving engine, making over 200hp all flowing through an air intake restrictor, car has ITB's, gigantic plenum, however due to rules they must all run that restrictor. The current Mugen B20A builder mentioned, if the restrictor was removed, the engine would easily put down overwhelming numbers...... hmmmm how?
                    i doubt it has anything to do with what you think it is, lol.

                    by the way your talking about a one off, hand built, +100% efficient engine. nothing under your hood, stock, comes near what that engine is likely to be sitting at. but again, application is the key to what your not seeing.

                    Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                    Last thing I'll mention. I gained 3whp and a broad power curve on my stock B18C when I replaced the stock intake manifold and TB with 52mm TWM ITB's, how? How is it possible? If what you said is valid?
                    3 whp huh? how many times have you been to a dyno, really? depending on actual output, 3 whp is near 2%, which is well with in the realm of day to day gains/losses of anyone car based on air density, temp, and degradation of the engine. a same 3 whp gain was claimed by spark plug designers..... but yeah... well.. lol


                    also, i doubt you have a broad curve with ITBs. ITBs by design lead to "peeky" power curves, look at bikes or ITB-ed super cars.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      68mm TB's are a starting point for H22's this is fact, if you don't believe me look up BB motorsports. Blake has done extensive research on this and has come to the conclusion that a 68mm TB would be the starting point to any H22 build.

                      He's also done a full intake comparison, all the short rams he's tested have failed and lost power. The stock intake has been the best solution for us. Sucking in hot air isn't the greatest.

                      He's also learned that a larger longer intake does give him the ability to drop VTEC engagement further down and actually gain about 10whp from a proper CAI setup.

                      Bisi's stock D series wagovan had a 3" exhaust long before he started his water/meth build. The thing had a 2 step on a stock D series. I've been going to him for a few years.

                      Yes, I have consulted Bisi and picked at his brain long before your posts. My current stockish B18C drag car picked up 4mph at the local strip from a 3" exhaust. All thanks to Bisi and a new exhaust plus tuning.

                      Your traditional way of thinking isn't the best, yes a street car does need an exhaust to quiet down the vehicle. If it is a street car and nothing big is planned for it, I agree a 2.5" exhaust would suffice.

                      However if you plan on terrorizing anything, go with 3". B20A3's again, have shown a 12% increase with a 3" exhaust, SOHC dual carb 95mm stroke with 84mm bore motor. I believe their compression is at or around 9:1 which isn't a screamer, high revver or even a comparable motor with such a poor performance from its displacement.

                      Bisi has built stock crank D series into or close to the 200whp mark. Are you saying the SOHC 1.6 litre motor is weak or not capable of doing so?

                      Look up my ITB video on youtube, you'll see the graph. Do some foot work instead of just acting like you know everything. You're going into a battle with someone who's been to the dyno hundreds of times, put together over 30 motors, has had countless 1/4 mile passes and is involved in a tremendous amount of drag racing for the past 10 years. Yeah, sure I don't post much because of this same monkey wrenching tools like yourself who seem to think they know it all. My stock H22A with a 40 shot has done a 12.8 pass so far and was tuned for a 75 shot with no major weight reduction or much done to the chassis. Yeah believe me, I've been there done that. From a built B16 turbo to a current fully built 2.1 B20B V breaking into the 260whp.

                      I have no need to prove anything beyond this, my reputation has followed me underground and my actual times posted and charts noted has said more then enough for me. Go back to your Hater-tech and cherrish your ignorance there. I don't need it.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                        Bisi has built stock crank D series into or close to the 200whp mark. Are you saying the SOHC 1.6 litre motor is weak or not capable of doing so?
                        you should probably READ my post before you responded, seeing as your failing to understand. Bisi is the name in the game for 200+ whp d-series. i know exactly what a d-series can and cant do in the current market offerings. for the average builder (hence "big tuna"s name drop), the numbers (number area anyway) are proven and can be duplicated by anyone. 200 whp, not so much.

                        a little info on my last DD build up: 9:1, forged bottom end, d16y7 @18 psi making 280 whp was my last build, this was a full street car and got 40+ mpg freeway.

                        Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                        You're going into a battle with someone who's been to the dyno hundreds of times, put together over 30 motors, has had countless 1/4 mile passes and is involved in a tremendous amount of drag racing for the past 10 years.
                        battle? thought this was a discussion? ehh, anywho.....

                        so you have been to the dyno hundreds of times/trips, yet you "threw" "3 whp" and a "broad powerband" into your post knowing full well those would be shot down. 3 whp could be any number of changes (shall i list them?) that should be benefited to nothing but a change to the wind. gain 10 whp then we are talking, but 3 whp difference is a joke and please dont use that info again when trying to "defend" a position in a conversation.

                        want some advice? if your going to throw in a power gain vs part installed, with no tuning changes, in a post, then you should at least have something (that is not a tuning tool, like a dyno) that shows proven and "repeatable" (factoring in human error) results (ETAs, lap times, etc). just makes for strong conversation.... wait, i mean "battle". lol.

                        Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                        B20A3's again, have shown a 12% increase with a 3" exhaust, SOHC dual carb 95mm stroke with 84mm bore motor. I believe their compression is at or around 9:1 which isn't a screamer, high revver or even a comparable motor with such a poor performance from its displacement.
                        SOHC and carb'ed.... well there should i take this apart or leave you to think you won something in life? your leaning a conversation on a motor that in itself started life as a failure, which you admit? wow.... anyway, when you start with junk, gains are often (at first) very forth giving. anything you add to the old school carb'ed honda engines would net big power gains. even something as "minor" as some carb work would net power gains that could be seen/felt/proven. from the word go, honda undersized everything on that engine and left it with a lacking fuel system. dont confuse that statement with saying that carbs are old school tech, cause they are not. with the correct application, a carb might (literally) be the only way to get the fuel delivery consistency required.

                        lets drag in another underdog, a kia. find a old kia accent and slap a nitrous kit on it, use a "25 whp" jet on it. make a pull on the dyno with and with out the spray. it will surprise you to no end how much it will gain with just that little bit. <- this was done as an experiment by myself and my tuner on my ex-gfs car.

                        Originally posted by team123luder View Post
                        Go back to your Hater-tech and cherrish your ignorance there. I don't need it.
                        wrong. i dont have, nor have i ever had, a H-T account. i dont post on H-T because i know better then to open that can of worms. i do however glance over there, as i know how to sift through the BS.

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